Northern Tracks Forum
Performance Forums => Drivetrain => Topic started by: snowbug77 on June 29, 2006, 08:16:43 am
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I have a narrow guage metal bombardier that needs a new differential assemble. What type of automotive differential is the most adaptable for this application?
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There are no automotive differential assemblies that fit the narrow guage. Is it just the carrier you need or is the whole assembly unuseable ? There likely are some available if you put the call out on this forum.
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If it is just the carrier that you need you can use one from an early 50's model Dodge or Plymouth car. Pickups too I think. Apparently the correct ratio is 4.11 to 1. I just found one that is 3.9 to 1 and I plan to use it. Later models had a finer axle spline pattern that was not compatable with the narrow guage axles. You have to pull the axles back to get the carrier out so you can tell right away if it is the right one. The ratio is usually stamped on the outer edge of the pinion gear. All above info is from Ted our local bombardier pro. For those of you with early wide guages you could use the auto axles or likely the whole assembly. Since you'd be installing it upside down you'd have to weld the vent hole up and tap in a new one on the other side.
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I phoned Dan Shaver and he made a ford 9" to fit, for my wide gauge.
Just had to get a new driveshaft made ($400 )
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In our 52 Narrow Gauge somebody has put in a GM 14-bolt rear end. Super beefy with 3/8 thick axle tubes, Full floating axles, 1-ton strength. Definatly will not be able to break it.
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Cranman I can get a rear end from a 1956 De Soto car. I don't think the bolt pattern is the same but I want to know if the crown & pinion would swap into mine ?? My ratio is 4;11. I guess the car would be 3;90 or 3;70 .Thanks OT.
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54 maybe, but I think 56 is too late. If the crown is 663445 maybe you could disassemble but the whole assy would have to be set up in a shop familiar with it. Better off to look for an old truck diff with the same bolt pattern and course spline axle. Then it is all bolt in with no shimming and adjusting
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Thanks Cranman. I think I may know where to find one. Think a 1 ton diff would be the same ??
OT.
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I have my woody diff in the shop waiting to see if I can get a set of spider gears for it. I also have a diff from a narrow gauge metal bomber. I have a couple of questions.
The woody diff has 4.11 gears & the diff from the metal bomber has 4.88 gears. Can I install the diff with 4.88's & use the woody sprockets ?? I was sizing everything up & the 4.88 looks wider than the 4.11.
It also has bigger axles. My sprocket hubs from the woody won't fit completely on the 4.88 axle. Is there any way to change these around ?? The 4.88 is in great shape.
According to case #'s it's a Dana 44. Can any body help me ??
This # is C 30294
http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m366/theoldtrucker/PICT1006.jpg
This # is 44-1
http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m366/theoldtrucker/PICT1005.jpg
In this pic I wonder if I cut off the shiny area of the hub, if it will fit in place on the other diff. Right now the hubs are 41- 41 1/2" center to center.
http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m366/theoldtrucker/PICT1004.jpg
Here you can see the difference in width.
http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m366/theoldtrucker/PICT1002.jpg
http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m366/theoldtrucker/PICT0998.jpg
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Never heard of anyone putting aluminum sprocket on a DANA . Would be OK if you can get it to mate up. Is the bolt pattern the same? With the aluminum sprockets you have to make sure they are tight. Many of them have been run loose at one time or another and the bolt holes elongate. I had to centre drill mine out to 3/4 inch and bush them with brass. Then I welded 1/2 inch nuts to the inside of the hub to increase the thread length. Then I used thick galvanized tower washers and grade 8 bolts torqued to the max. After about a week I got another 1/4 turn and the next year another 1/4 but since then all is ok. If you can install new spiders in the 4.10 it would be ok too. They are pretty tough.
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Thanks Cranman. Can you tell me where I can get a set of 4.10 spider gears, ( new or good used ). I have one aluminum & one cast sprocket. When I measured up both diffs, both will mount to the chassis, but when I measure from outside of housing to mount bracket the 4.88 is 5 & 7/8" and the 4.10 is only 4". That's 1 & 7/8" difference per side.
According to this, the outside track width on the metal bomber is almost 4" wider than the woody track. I'm thinking if I put the 4.88 in & put on rubber sprockets it is going to throw my tracks way off alignment.
I guess my other option is to take the old metal bomber that we got out east & cut the top half off & make a woody from that.
I was told that the original 4.10 I have is from an old Dodge. I'm thinking it's from a late 40's model. Is it a Dana ?
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If you go with the dana with the 4.88 you would need to go with the new style of sprockets. Either rubber or plastic like mine. You would then need to get made a hub to attach the sprocket to the axle. The required offset can be built into this new hub.
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OT. I mentioned the dana to ted yesterday and he confirmed what Mr. Paulson had to say about getting new hubs made with an offset, so you may be better advised to look for a new diff or the parts you need. Is there no auto wreckers in NFL with an old pre 1954 dodge car or pickup laying around. You've shown us what the salty air does to the bodies, but surely the diffs would survive. As for the spider gears you might try googling "Collectors Auto Supply" as I see they have parts for that diff listed. The side gear they list is the same number as the course spline axles we have in our diffs. Good luck with that.
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Cranman I think I may have found just what I need today. I was talking to a company in Winnipeg today & they have the" nest kit", complete with the case for less than $200 bucks (new). I checked the local bearing shop here & came accross with almost everything else that I need.
The seal for the inside maybe a shade too big & I can't get a flange seal for the outside, (where the hub fits inside it & bolts together). The fellow there said I probably could use the old seal & put an "O" ring inside. It's only grease between both seals, so it may just work. I'm checking it all out before I order to make sure I have everything.
Oldsledz did you have to replace the outer flange seals on your axles ?? Below is a pic of the flange seal. The shiny part of the hub fits inside the seal. I can get a seal # 21061 that fits but doesn't have the flange to secure it.
http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m366/theoldtrucker/PICT1004.jpg
I think OT's gettin' all geared up....
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OT. I mentioned the dana to ted yesterday and he confirmed what Mr. Paulson had to say about getting new hubs made with an offset, so you may be better advised to look for a new diff or the parts you need. Is there no auto wreckers in NFL with an old pre 1954 dodge car or pickup laying around. You've shown us what the salty air does to the bodies, but surely the diffs would survive. As for the spider gears you might try googling "Collectors Auto Supply" as I see they have parts for that diff listed. The side gear they list is the same number as the course spline axles we have in our diffs. Good luck with that.
Cranman everything scrapped here goes to the crushers & ends up in Quebec & Ontario. I have hauled too many loads of it. I will call "Collectors Auto Supply" when they open today to see what's what. Thanks again.
OT.
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OT. I see they had a 3.90 carrier complete listed. That is what I have for a spare out of a 1952 DeSoto. Didn't see it listed but they may have the heavy outer seal. I was lucky enough to get National 5797. If you look back Averyman found a heavy seal that he had to make some alteration to use.
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Marc... would you know if there is there anyone up around your way that might have a set of spider gears & the case for sale for the woody. I think it's called a "loaded case".
OT.
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hey im going to shawinigan on monday there will be a good gang of snows there i will check it out for u get back to you on friday or saturday
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Thanks Marc. I can get it bought down easily enough if it's not too far off the 20... OT.
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Thanks Chopperguy for the update you sent to me. I will follow up on it tomorrow first thing.
One fingers crossed old trucker.....
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If it is just the carrier that you need you can use one from an early 50's model Dodge or Plymouth car. Pickups too I think. Apparently the correct ratio is 4.11 to 1. I just found one that is 3.9 to 1 and I plan to use it. Later models had a finer axle spline pattern that was not compatable with the narrow guage axles. You have to pull the axles back to get the carrier out so you can tell right away if it is the right one. The ratio is usually stamped on the outer edge of the pinion gear. All above info is from Ted our local bombardier pro. For those of you with early wide guages you could use the auto axles or likely the whole assembly. Since you'd be installing it upside down you'd have to weld the vent hole up and tap in a new one on the other side.
Cranman if the correct ratio is 4.11, which is in the woody, & the correct ratio is 4.89 which is in the narrow metal, can I switch the whole insides of the case from one to another ?? I guess the axle spline has to be the same & I will have to reuse my own axles.
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I never heard of a 4.89 in an early dodge ?? that would be compatable with your axles. My 3.9 spare out of a 52 Desoto has the course spline. If you are talking about the 4.89 Dana in the later model metals, I don't think the axles would work. I think it is a totally different set up. Going from 4.1 to 3.9 for me will be ok and may even be better for gas mileage. Won't make much difference either way I suppose. At my age a little howling doesn't matter much, getting deaf so I may never have to use my spare but if I don't keep it in the shed , sure as hell I'll need it.
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Cranman I have to look at an old 50-51 Fargo pickup when the snow goes here. There may be a diff in it. Can you tell me if the rear end in a 1949 Dodge power wagon would have the setup I'm looking for ?
OT.
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hey ot it might be same set up not sure if 411 check on vintage powwer wagons lots of info there.also go dodge city site he is in southern ontaroi lots ofparts may have a diff for u the 4.89 is in 1 ton diff the same as in my bombardier td trucks hope this can be of some help .any pictures of that snow of urs
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Thanks for the advise Marc. I will check it out. I was talking to a machine shop this morning & they say I can get a diff from a GM truck & have it narrowed for a reasonable price ( similur to Swamp Dawgs ) If I went this way I shouldn't have much trouble finding parts if need be. Marc all my pics are on here in the wooden bombardier section. I'm talking about a diff like the one on top in the top pic. It is a Dana 44 & came from a narrow gauge metal. It is 4" too wide. He says it is pretty straight forward. I'm thinking when he cuts the outer end off the axle he could weld back a piece of 3/8- 7/16" plate drilled out to accept my sprockets. Sound about right ????????????
http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m366/theoldtrucker/PICT1001.jpg
http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m366/theoldtrucker/PICT0998.jpg
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Cranman here are a couple of pics of a diff that is supposed to belong to a 59 Dodge. It's three & a half hrs. east of me so I'll have to get a someone to size it up before I go there.
Let know what you think. It looks close to mine. If it's the same spline & bolt pattern... it should be good. Do you know what the ratio would be in a 1959 ??
http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m366/theoldtrucker/59DodgeDiff005.jpg
http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m366/theoldtrucker/59DodgeDiff001.jpg
http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m366/theoldtrucker/59DodgeDiff003-1.jpg
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Well it looks a bit like it but I never seen one with those bolt holes tapped in at the spline end. They might be ok for a brake mount. I suppose you'll have to get someone to pull the axles and send a pic of the spline. If it is after 1953 or so it likely has the finer axle spline and therefor of no use to you. AS to the ratio it is hard to say, you'd have to turn and count or take it out and look at the stamp.
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The diff I just removed has the same tapped holes. It has a 30 count splined axle.
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I have another question for someone to answer. I was told today that he has a couple of aluminum sprockets taken of a metal bomber.
I can only imagine that owner lost his diff & installed a woody diff & sprockets. If I am right I may have parts for my diff. Is there any way that the diff from a woody will fit on a metal bomber & have the sprockets line up with the wheels ??
OT ??? ???
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I'm looking for the # of the seal that the hub fits into. The pic below shows what I am talking about. We are having trouble matching one up.
http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m366/theoldtrucker/PICT1004.jpg
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I understand the national seal 5797, is no longer available. I got lucky and got one from Mexico when I did mine. But if you look back Averyman found a NAPA seal that worked out OK for him. The original National Pinion seal was 5851, but CR#18880 does the job as well.
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Cranman I was talking to my local bearing shop & gave her the 5797 number seal & she says she can order them through the states. She says there is a flange made onto the seal that has 5 bolt holes in it. I thought the seal inside was separate.
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My seal supplier crossed 5797 to a SKF # & came up with a pic of the flange & seal all in one. They can get it in the states. Meanwhile I talked to Skidoorich today & got an address in western US. that apparently has them in stock. I am looking for good pic to send to them to make sure it's the right one. Anyone got a good pic of one ??? ???
OT.
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Any one know what kind of 3/4 ton differential would be the best to put on a wide metal bomber?
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you can basically put any rearend in, you just need to make proper hubs to line up with track,I put a full floater dana 60 in my 61 wide!