Northern Tracks Forum
General Forums => Metal Bombardiers => Topic started by: dpaulson on May 03, 2010, 12:36:48 pm
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Look what followed me home Saturday
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Ain't she ugly....
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well the motor sounded alright in that 51....that's all the good i can say about that one.
kpm
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Can some one tell me what the difference is between Mike's 57 C18 & this 51 R18 ?? Would it be where one is a narrow gauge & the other is a wide gauge ??
A puzzled OT ??
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I managed to get all the junk cut off, the windows and doors removed, and the floor pan cut out this weekend.
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when i saw this machine when brad owned,it needed LOTS of attention looks like you have your hands full....and are on the right track..i'm sure it will be a totally different bombardier when your finished
kpm
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1951 metals are pretty rare. I've never seen one but talked to Ted and he has. The lights back near the windshield were different as were the front skiis. Ted says the front king pins had needle bearings and sure enough they are in the parts list for Serial with prefix 3A. Mine is an early 1953 (January) Serial prefix 2D. It has the shocks added, wooden doors and aluminum sprockets. All later 1953's were 3B's I think. I see some upgrades on this machine I think. Metal doors and and new style sprockets weren't around in 1951 to my knowlege. If there are shocks, they were added too. Is the maufacturers plate still readable in the engine bay.
I'd like to know if anyone has a 1953 with serial above 2D4175.??
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This weekend I welded the new floor pan in with a removable access plate for the engine compartment (thanks to Swamp Dawg for the idea) :) It should come in handy when changing oil, any starter problems etc. I built a new fuel tank (just like the original). I robbed the filler spout and cap from the old tank. Put a new sender in it. I also installed the exhaust. I used a couple of cherry bomb turbo mufflers with the exhaust out the back.
Cranman,
The serial plate is readable.
Model R18
Chassis 1C3519
Motor 22120C, but it now has a 318
Command? 17653
Date Fabricated 22 12 51
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Cut an access panel in the nose about the same size and configeration as your roof hatch while your doing your mods....you will find it makes working on things up front a lot easier down the way.
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Since there appears to be so few metals in 1951 and yours was made right at the end of the year, it may be the first metal. I suppose the bombardier museum has all the details.
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Cranman, just for the heck of it I sent an email to the bombardier museum requesting some information on the first manufactured metals. It would be interesting to see how close that it is to the first metal. Another small difference on mine is that I have only one hole for the defrost, whereas Swamp Dawg's 52 has two. I think that I will install another one to 'update' it.
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Dpaulson could you post the email address for the Bombardier museum. Thank you. OT.
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This is who I sent it to
collectionneurs@museebombardier.com
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This is the reply that I received.
Dear Mr. Paulson,
In reply to your request:
First of all, according to your register, you snowmobile comes originally from this dealer - Industrial Engines (Alta) LTD, Edmonton.
Your vehicle was made the sixth snowmobile in 1951. Just only 13 units were produced for this first year of the R18.
Thank for your interest in the Musée J. Armand Bombardier. If you require any further information, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Yours sincerely,
Guy Pépin
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This is what I accomplished in the last couple of weekends.
Remove and replaced the tin where the side panel and fenders meet. Both sides were rusted out. New fender tops also added.
Built a tub liner out of aluminum checker-plate.
Built a counsel for the shifter. I'm using a Hurst ratchet shifter. I tell people that when I want to get to 30 mph, I want to get there right now. :)
Seats installed.
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it is already looking like a totally different bombardier....nice job!!
kpm
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I have to agree with you KPM. She's definitely looking 100% better already...
OT.
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Well, parts for the steering and brake never showed up, so I spent my time re-skinning the doors. I only had 18ga sheet to work with, so after I cut the pannels out about 1/2" wider on the straight to about 1/4" wider on the curves, I bent the straight parts to a 90 deg in my brake. I used a ball peen hammer to fold the sheet over the angle frame. The last door only took about 1 hr. I went on a lot better than I had anticipated.
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very nice job..
kpm
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This weekend I reskinned the cargo door, install the hydraullic cylinders for the power steering, fabricated the brake peddle set up and installed. and installed the rotor and caliper setup. The brake peddle and master cylinder were salvage from on old electric fork lift.
These are the cylinders for the steering
This is the hand pump I'm using to control the hydraullic fluid.
It is salvage from an old Massy combine
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I have to apologise for the poor pictures, I need to get a new camera.
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What diameter & length are those cylinders & where did you get them ??
OT.
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Those cylinders are from princess auto 1 1/2 Dia X 12" stroke. I don't know what PSI the power steering pump puts out, but I beleive that cylinders are big enought as the leaverage from the ski pivot to the ball joint is large. I needed to use 2 cylinders to keep the volume of oil the same for turning left or right. The big side of one cyl is plumbed to the small side of the other cyl then to one side of the hand pump. Also, my bombardier is a wide guage steel so I have enough room up front.
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very good fabricating....excellant ideas.....when can i bring one of mine for some upgrades..???
kpm
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I think you should wait to see if I make it to the Cranberry rally. ;D ;D You know, I can talk the talk, but can I walk the walk?
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Please correct me if I'm wrong, but could you tie those cylinders into your power steering pump ? Wouldn"t it look after turning those cylinders ?
OT.
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I called it a hand pump because it is known in these parts as a hand pump. It really should be called a steering control valve. This control valve is connected to the power steering pump also. I have it hooked up now. There is 5 3/4 turns of the steering wheel to go from extreme left to extreme right. It can turn the skis while the machine is at rest while it is sitting on concrete floor. I don't know if it can do the same in snow where the ski runners are dug into the snow, but it should work fine while moving.
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Thanks for the learning experience. I know I'm never too old to learn.
A smarter OT.
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my good friend Pete has installed a power steering set up on one of his wide gauge metals....it works excellant!!...I was able to turn the ski's either way on gravel with one finger!
kpm
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Kpm you didn't take any pics for this ol' trucker now did ya ??
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no I did.nt.....I hate to ask him....as it is a VERY unique system,which will fit either a wide or narrow guage...and i'm not sure of his plans of as yet....i'll see what I can do..
kpm
he owns 6 bombardiers,so once he's done his and my 2,i'm sure i'll be able to get some pictures.
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I used paint stripper chemical and a wire wheel on a grinder to remove at least 5 layers of paint.
It must be 100 lbs lighter now. I just started to do some body filling.
I got to see some of the hand drawn pin stripping on the original maroon paint. It would be nice if I can put it back on after.
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There should be lots of pics of the striping for you to use when your ready. The looks improve quickly now that you have the old stuff off & putting new back on. Are you going to put the maroon paint back on ?? She reminds me of Mike's 57 rebuild when he was at that stage. Keep up the great work & I'm sure she will see the snow in the next few months.
The Old Trucker
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Did Mike get his done? What about you, where are you at on yours now?
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Mike is still picking away at his when he has a day off. He has her all primed up. She went back in his garage last week for some more touch ups before painting. He has polished aluminum checker plate all in around the engine area & is getting ready to install his engine & trans.
Right now he's on 2 weeks holidays. When he gets back I'll get a few pics of his latest work. I haven't done a tap to mine since last month. Too hot, plus I have to watch it with the old ticker. Not much of it left. I have the patterns for the panels, thanks to Oldsledz ! I have to make a few adjustments to the motor location, put the diff back together plus a bit of front end work before tackling the wood. Maybe the winter of 2011 !!
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Dpaulson in the pic where you have started with body filler, I noticed that your bogey springs have chains attached to them. Myself & Paul Allen recently bought 2 1954 bombers & they have bars instead of chain. On 57rebuild he has chains, same as on mine.
I was wondering if they used chain first, then tried bars, & went back to chain. Maybe someone can set me straight on this. Just curious ....
OT.
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chains first..and the best way to go....bars were tried,even on the front of the old woodens,they are too rigid..chains are the way to go.
kpm
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Thanks for the reply KPM. I would think that when Paul gets to that stage in his (Paul's 54 restore) He'll go with the chain.
OT.
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well he certainly has not jury rigged anything else,so i'm sure he will.
kpm
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Did you find that one brand of stripper is better than another. (I just started to stip my 56? I don't know the exact year since the tag is gone) The stripper I have says aircraft stripper and smells amonia based. There seems to be 5 distinctive colors. Parts come off real easy however some of it is really attached.Any suggestions
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I just used Circa 1850 Furniture Stripper just because it was available locally. I had to apply it 3 to 4 times over the same area to remove the paint. It seems to only remove about 1 layer at a time, maybe because each layer was fairly thick. I used about 2 1/2 gallons altogether and about a days labour. Cost was about 30.00/gal. It should make my paint job look a lot better, as I prefer to put the paint drips in myself , and not use the previous painters' drips. :D
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Those cylinders are from princess auto 1 1/2 Dia X 12" stroke. I don't know what PSI the power steering pump puts out, but I beleive that cylinders are big enought as the leaverage from the ski pivot to the ball joint is large. I needed to use 2 cylinders to keep the volume of oil the same for turning left or right. The big side of one cyl is plumbed to the small side of the other cyl then to one side of the hand pump. Also, my bombardier is a wide guage steel so I have enough room up front.
So how do the "hand pump" work ? Do you turn the steering wheel plus move a lever for the skis to turn, or is it all done in a single motion with the wheel ?? By the way I like the way you have the brake caliper set up. I think I will go that way with mine.
OT.
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It is all done in a single motion. It allows a bit of oil through when the steering wheel is turned. I guess that's why they call it a 'hand pump' because it will pump oil to the appropriate side of the cylinder even when the power steering pump is not turning (ie when the engine is not started) although you must put some effort into steering.
As far as the brake caliper goes, I was using the instructions that Cletus gave using the same parts in http://www.northerntracks.com/forum/index.php?topic=352.0 (http://www.northerntracks.com/forum/index.php?topic=352.0), but in assembly showed that I cannot mount the rotor in the same direction as he did as I have the original rear end (Ford 9") and his has been replaced with a 3/4 ton rear end. There is a gusset at the bottom of the pumpkin preventing the installation that way. The rotor was turned around to have the offset facing the rear of the vehicle. I used the same brake caliper as he did. The only thing that I can say is that you can get the calipers for either the right side or the left side. The difference is where the bleed screw is. I got the wrong side and to bleed the system, my caliper must be removed and turned upside down to get the screw to the top.
I haven't posted much in this thread, but I have been working on it every weekend since the last pictures posted. I have put on about 10 gal of body fill. I am sure that I sanded off most of it. Somebody that knows what their doing could of done in 1/4 of the time that I spend, but it did turn out pretty good. There is a lot of dints and imperfections that accumulate over 60 years. I had the guy at the body shop bring his colour camera over to get the colour code of the original paint, before it completely disappeared from the body fill. It's came as Western Star medium maroon. I didn't realise that this paint is so pricy, but I hope it is as good as he says it is. I should get it paint next weekend.
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Just an update on progress. I really like the colour.
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Looks good my friend. If I had a metal bomber I would paint it the same color. I like it alot.
OT.
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When you get the undercarriage & rims painted she'll look better again !! I noticed in the last pic it looks like that "hand pump" as you call it, is fitted into the steering column itself. Any chance of getting a pic or two of how you have it done ??
I'm trying to think of how you open & close that valve to turn the skis.
A puzzled OT.
??? ??? ??? ???
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The steering column was shortened and a keyway cut to accept a universal joint. The pump has 2 ports, the pressure and return to tank. This is connected to the 'hand pump' with hoses going to the 2 ports nearest where the shaft goes out. The other 2 ports on the hand pump are connected to the steering cylinders.
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Thanks alot. I was thinking something along them lines, but wasn't too sure. Must have been a sale on maroon paint. Looks like you have everything covered, which is good. 8) 8) ;D All I need now is a bit of glue to stick my hair back in place!!!!!
A Blushing OT.
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OT here.... thinking again. What would happen if you were to chafe a hose & lost your fluid ?? Would you still have any steering capabilities left ?? I mean there's no mechanical link there to the skis... is there ??
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No, you would be hooped. The hose is fairly thick with 2 ply steel braid. It would take more then 1 year usage to wear a hole in a hose. I suppose an annual inspection *should* alleviate any problems in that area.
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hi guys nice job i just bought a nother snow it has power sterring il send some pictures when i figure out how to do this .if any of u has original gauges sterring wheels or even the plymouth center piece ill buy some if u want keep up the nice work u are keeping ARMAND BOMBARDIER dream alive.i forgot even door handels are ok to
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I thank you for the update on this matter Mr. Paulson. I am never too old to learn something new & I have learned alot since coming here.
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Since I used bucket seats from a 4 door truck which do not fold ahead to ease entry to the back, I mad a little hideaway step to help passengers. It will be built into the seat when I get to that part.
Some pic of the headliner installation.
I used the holes that were for the previous headliner. They were not factory holes as it looked like the guy used a hammer and a punch. I used stainless screws to screw the 3/4 x 1-1/2 oak strips on. I used 1/4 G1S fir plywood that I covered with headliner material and screwed up to the oak strips. I'm happy with the way it turned out.
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Looks great so far, what kind of material did you use for headliner ?? OT.
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It's a vinyl of some type. I purchased it off the internet from a company in the US. It was under automotive headliner section.
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In the second last pic showing your upholstery, I noticed your dash looked like it is done. Any pics of it ? Mike (57 rebuild) will soon be at his & wanted to see a few different styles.
OT.
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Some excellent work going on there. Keep it up and the pictures coming. I like the flip down step idea, never seen anything like it.
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In the second last pic showing your upholstery, I noticed your dash looked like it is done. Any pics of it ? Mike (57 rebuild) will soon be at his & wanted to see a few different styles.
OT.
Here ya go,
I think that I made 3 others also before I settled on this. That's one thing about a CNC plasma, it doesn't take much time to cut something out. Also, it doesn't take much time to waste a sheet either. :'(
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Some excellent work going on there. Keep it up and the pictures coming. I like the flip down step idea, never seen anything like it.
Thanks Swamp Dawg, I've never seen a step like that either :D
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Nice dash Dave. The two knobs above the three rocker switches, are they what I call knob switches ? They turn on/off or pull/push instead of up & down like a toggle ? Where did you get them ? I think they look right at home on these old bombers. I think Gror has a couple of nice looking ones on his too...
ol' trucker
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I got those switches from Princess Auto. They are a rotary 3 speed fan switch. I have a heater up front for defrost/ foot heater, and one in the rear for cabin heat. There were about 10.00 each.
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Thanks !! I will call them & get a couple. Would you know the part # for them ?
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Item number 8003273
http://www.princessauto.com/trailer/truck/winter/heating/8003273-3-speed-auxiliary-heater-fan-switch (http://www.princessauto.com/trailer/truck/winter/heating/8003273-3-speed-auxiliary-heater-fan-switch)
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my cousin knows you....and told me you do great work at your shop...it shows!!
kpm
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Thanks, I guess its good enough to get by for 25 yrs now. :)
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well i'd have to think ur doing something right!!!... 8)
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Some pictures of the rub rail and pin-stripping.
I've removed the tires and sprockets to install new.
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looks real good,....i've been told that bombardier ran the exhaust manifolds..out the sides to direct heat away from the rad...let me know if yours runs hot(hotter)...because the exhaust runs out the back close to the rad...i've ben told with a standard..it was.nt too bad,though with an automatic they run hot???...i'm curious if this is the case.
...it sure has had the good fortune of falling into your hands...you've turned the ugly duckling into the swan!!! ...once again it looks real nice.
kpm
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I don't think heat by the rad would be a problem, but it would definitely run hotter inside the engine compartment. I am sure a v8 would throw more heat anyway. The little bit that I did run it water temp was only about 150 with one heater on and in about 8" fluffy wet snow. I still need to install heat shields around the mufflers at least to help protect fuel lines and alternator power steering pump from excessive heat and install venting in my fuel tanks as they pressure up. I may also need to install a fan on the engine doors to help with heat, but I'll wait with that for now. There is no doubt more kinks to work out.
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150...you should not encounter heat problems at all.
i've heard some people drill a small hole in their gas cap,it stops the vapour lock.
kpm
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Great looking machine Dave. I guess you can't wait to get her out for a good run. OT.
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Here is a before and after for comparison.
All in all, I'm glad I'm almost done. Probably never get done, just work on it less...
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Looks like another one rolling off the assembly line.
Looking great my friend...looking great. I also like the color of the wood as it goes good with the paint job. My hat's off to you...
The Old Trucker... Proud Again.
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Hello Dave
I would like to comment on your recent rebuild of the 1951 Bombardier.
You took a sad looking machine and gave it a whole new life. You are a man that looks to have the ability to restore very well and at the same time you have implemented some very nice ideas that make the machine more functional. Very nice work!.I am curious what you did for a speedometer. May be you will come up to Cranberry Portage with your machine this coming winter and will will have the opportunity to meet you and your machine.
Regards
Ray
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Hi Ray,
We are planning to go to Cranberry Portage for the next rally and look forward to meeting you and Paul, KPM, Cranman and the rest of the gang that shows up. The speedometer that I used I purchased from Surplus Center (a US company).
https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=28-1751&catname=engines (https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=28-1751&catname=engines)
Its a good price and works very well and being electronic, you set the pulses / mile and is as accurate as you make it.
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Dave
it's a great time at the rally,with a great bunch of people...looking forward to meeting u in person
reguards kyle(kpm)
hmm..lol..could use ur expertise right now!!....reworking a 54 narrow gauge..have the motor and tranny out...stripping her down..lol
kpm
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Dave
what kind of rubber did u use for your gas neck filler(where ur gas cap is)???
kyle
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Kyle. I used a rubber grommet that is used to hold in the 2"? round clearance lamps. Grote makes them. They are hanging anywhere that sell trailer lighting products.
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That's right Dave, & there is the 2 1/2" ones also. Might cost $1.50 - 2 bucks each. Grote or Truck Lite. I have some kicking around. Cheaper to buy a couple than me send them by mail to you.
OT.
PS... Kyle they even have a lip on the edge that will keep them in place. Good idea Dave.
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Thanks Dave,,,Claude(ot)...must have being thinking we just had u on here for ur good looks!!!...lol..
i'll check the local trailor stores,when i'm in the city next week..cause if ot sends them by the time the dog team gets here i'll be done!!..lol..
kpm
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I have the dodge 8.75 diff pulled out and located a ford 9". I chose the ford 9" because it seems that it is a favorite among race car and 4 x 4 rock climbing truck builders. Also the axles are held into place by the outer bearings so if an axle did brake, the sprocket on that side will not work out. You can get almost any gearing that you want as well as any make of locking or limited slip diff you choose. This diff came out of a 72 pickup. I cut the mounting brackets off and remove the shocks, brakes and hardware as it's not needed. I removed the axles to install new bearings and seals. Today's job was to remove the yoke and manufacture the mounting plate for the brake rotor setup. With the mail worker are finally back to work, maybe some of my other parts that were ordered will start to show up.
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Dave... ol' buddy..ol' pal. Is that diff still the original length or did you do some cutting to it ? I know you have a wide gauge, but I was wondering if it's the same length as the old one. I like the idea of the sprocket staying put in the event for trouble. Is that the same diff as in the newer pickups ( 80's - 90's ).
The ends on yours looks similur to mine. The machinists here say they can narrow up a diff for me if need be. Dave, if I went like you are, do you think it would be OK to weld a piece of round 1/4 or 3/8 plate to the axle ends & get them drilled to accept my sprockets ??
OT.....
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The newer pickups have a 8.8". The axles are held in with a c-clip at the differential end, so these ones won't stay in when broken. I would think the odds of braking an axle is low in the type of driving that I do anyway, I not sure how rammy you are. You'll have to judge that for yourself :o. This diff is 2" wider than the Chrysler diff. The bolt pattern is different anyway, so I'll just re-manufacture new centers for the sprockets with the correct offset.
do you think it would be OK to weld a piece of round 1/4 or 3/8 plate to the axle ends & get them drilled to accept my sprockets ??
I don't have any experience with welding on axles to say one way or another. Can you just knock out the studs in the axle and locate and re-drill in between stud holes (assuming the plate is large enough) or re-drill your alum. sprocket. (or forget about the alum sprockets altogether and go with the newer style plastic sprocket). I think that when the diff has been narrowed, the general practice to narrow the axle is to cut the spline end and re-spline because it would be a lot less work than to build up the axle and machining for the bearing as well as the plate for the stud bolts.
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Dave I think it would be educational to take pics of the step by step procedure involved in doing this. I know it would help me ....
OT'S still learning....
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Dave I have an idea. I don't know if it is stupid or not but here goes. If the new diff you have was just the right size, couldn't you leave the brake drums & shoes attached ?? Then plum in two master cylinders so you could have steering brakes for use on icy surfaces...
Look up (Drivetrain) & look at page 2, start @ Reply # 16. It will show what I'm talking about.
OT.
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Don't know if he comes on here in summer but stuckinslush (Darrell) used a diff from a ford explorer and it even bolted up to his sprockets. I think he had to put spacers in when he took the rotors off but it was perfect and the ratio was great for his woodie. That is a pretty tough diff apparently.
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Dave.... How are you doing with your new differential ?? Get it put in yet ??
A nosey OT.
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I ordered a ARB air locker from a California company. They say it is still on back order after 2 months. I'm to call again this Friday. I hope that I havn't been taken. I've got the 4.86 pinion and motive gears as well as the rebuild bearings and gaskets, so as soon as I receive the locker, I'll will be installing it. I also have a better windshield wiper setup to install (a 2 wiper system with 1 motor). Only about 4 months and winter is here.
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The air locker and compressor finally showed up today. Hopefully in the next couple of weeks I'll get it installed into the diff. I've got some reading to do on how to get the gears set up properly.
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Got a couple hours in, well actually closer to a day and a half :). I installed the new motive and pinion gears which is 4.86 and the ARB air locker. Setup wasn't too bad. The Ford 9" is supposed to be the easiest for a beginner to set up.
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Diff is back together. Locker verified no air leaks and engages. Made new mounting brackets to get welded on the tube. Now just to pull the bombardier out of storage and install. I will need to make new adapters to mount the sprockets on as this diff has a different bolt pattern as well as the offset need to keep the sprocket inline with the wheels.
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Dave, the seal that you have at the ends of the axle, held together by 4 bolts, would it be called flange seal ? I have to get new ones for mine. Is the flange part of the seal when you buy it or do you reuse the flange ?? Take it easy on me...I'm still learning....
OT.
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OT, there isn't a flange on those seals. They look like a regular seal, a bit thicker with a sealing ring on the exterior also. The pinion seal has a flange on it though.
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I was going to get back at it in a couple of days, but it turned into a couple months. :o
I have the diff installed, new adapters for the sprockets and driveshaft installed. When I pulled the driveshaft out of the tranny, of course some tranny fluid comes out. It didn't smell and the tranny still shifts good, but the oil took on a brownish red look. I suppose discloured from heat. I should look for a bigger cooler and flush and reinstall new oil.
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Dave how about if you took off the cover, drained everything out, changed the filter & installed new oil.. On mine it was the first time it was ever changed & it's a 1984 model... Just my .02 cents worth.... OT.
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OT, I changed filters and new oil in it last winter when I changed the input shaft seal. I have already located a cooler about twice as big as what currently on it. Also I am going to install a temp sender into the tranny with a guage on the dash. Just to keep an eye on things.
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Forward to 2018. When I installed the ford diff, i put in a ARB air locker and changed gearing to 4.86 from the original 4.11. Since then I installed a new 318 engine with 4bbl carb and a cam. I goes good now. 1st gear performs like a bull low with the 4.86 gears. I have purchase and yet to install a rebuilt A518 transmission. Similar to the 727, but with a lock up torque and overdrive gear. The overdrive and lockup torque are controlled by 12v power so, I will probably just install a just toggle switch to activate them.